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How to deal with pesky enchantments...

topic posted Thu, January 29, 2004 - 4:45 PM by  Unsubscribed
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My group plays casual and no cards are banned or restricted.hile this enables us to use all our collections it has also been a headache. There's always that one person who puts these unstoppable combos together you have to deal with. That person in our group has found a few combos of enchantments that create endless loops, endless creatures or endless mana added to a fireball.

When I play blue, green or white, this is no big deal as they have many things to take care of enchantments. But what do you do when you play black or red?

With red you have to race to do enough damage to him to kill him before he draws his combo. (Bloody hard to do most of the time.) With Black you're screwed completely, even with a shadow-weenie deck - it just takes too long to kill him.

Anyone have any clever ways to help a red or black mage deal with enchantment combos? Thanks.

Cheers!
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  • Re: How to deal with pesky enchantments...

    Thu, January 29, 2004 - 7:27 PM
    Here area few cards to work with that has done well for me.
    Some are multi-colored so they work well with other cards.

    1)Vindicate - W,BL - destroy any permanent
    2)Hull Breach - R,G - destroy artifact and/or enchantment
    3)Recoil - BL,BU - bounce permanent
    4)Headstone - BL - good against grave getter decks
    5)Cremate - BL - same as above
    6)Fissure - R - or any land trash deck
    7)Coercion - BL - or any hand trash deck
    8)Gauntlets of Chaos - A - destroy land or creature to kill enchantments on them

    I'll keep racking my brain for more ideas for you.
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    Re: How to deal with pesky enchantments...

    Tue, February 3, 2004 - 1:50 PM
    Yeah, black and red are powerless against enchantments. Red especially, since its magic is aimed at destroying "physical" things.

    * Thunderscape Battlemage - its a red card with a green enchantkill kicker...

    * Irini Sengir - doesnt destroy enchantments but makes them costly to play
    * Quagmire Druid - although its destroy enchantment activation cost requires green...

    * Crown of the Ages - moves enchantments around. Only works on creatures.
    * Nevinyrral's Disk - well, it blows up everything... including enchantments.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: How to deal with pesky enchantments...

      Tue, February 3, 2004 - 3:14 PM
      Up until now, I have indeed been using "Nevinyrral's Disk" and because Black is so good at getting stuff out of the graveyard been working that angle.

      Irini Singir has been in and out of the deck in hopes of slowing people down, but I have largely found by the time she comes out it's too late. Arg!

      I've been trying to get in some quick kills but about half the time the deck isn't fast enough to stop enchantments.
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        Re: How to deal with pesky enchantments...

        Tue, February 3, 2004 - 3:53 PM
        Yeah, I hear ya. Red and Black have a scattered number of "destroy permanent" spells, but as expected, they are expensive to cast and use.

        You could always use white and green creatures and use "zombify" effects to trigger their come-in-play abilities. Aven Cloudchaser is a good one here. A little more work to pull off, and their are much better combos to use with zombify :)
  • Re: How to deal with pesky enchantments...

    Sun, March 21, 2004 - 3:14 AM
    If you guys have a wideopen environment, I can tell you one black deck that, while tough to master against some types is very effective against most combo decks, and thats the old Pox deck.

    It may take me awhile to dig a decklist out for you, but it runs a TON of discard, and only three pure creatures, plus the mishra lands and lots of swamps.

    A first turn dark ritual followed by a Duress (look at their hand and choose a non creature card to discard) and a Hymn to Tourach BB (discard two cards) OR a Pox (each player sacrifices a third of their creatures, lands, life and cards in hand) for BBB pretty much wrecks a combo deck out of the gate.

    Other great cards in variants of the deck are funeral charm (-1/-1 to a creature OR discard one card of their choice at instant speed OR turn a land into a 1/1 B:regen creature), 4 Cursed Racks are a big winner in this deck and Cursed Scrolls are very complimentary.

    Many people use 3 Skittering Skirges or 3 of a Golem that is a 3/4 for 3 (cant cast other creature spells while in play). I used one of each and an Ihsan's Shade.

    A KEY card for this was the black card that for B let you name a card then remove the top six cards of your library from game, then turn over cards until you hit the one you name, putting all revealed after the 1st six in graveyard. You used those in several ways: 1 to get a key swamp when hosed. 2 to get whatever kill card or save card you must have. 3 to fuel a Yawgmoth's Will (a black enchantment card that lets you play cards in your graveyard as though they were in your hand).

    In its time, it regualarly trashed High tides, the infinite mana/braingeyser you out of cards by turn three deck, and if teched with a few Engineered Plagues main-deck or sideboard could slay Sliver decks/Elf-stompy decks/ and even Goblin decks (Sligh was big then). It is very versatile and has many paths to victory.

    Key board cards were persecute against mono decks, Gloom against white, Edicts (those are maindeck if you know the field you are in is heavy creature decks as are the Plagues), among others.

    This decks biggest weaknesses were Hermit/Oath of Druids and Jank (speedy white red creature removal).

    There are several tech variants (and core cards I have forgot to mention), but this is a deck that destroys most combo engines. It can be expensive to piece together because of the scrolls and high number of rares, and it has a high learning curve, but once you learn how to play the MAIN card right, Pox, the rest is gravy.
    • typo correction

      Sun, March 21, 2004 - 3:19 AM
      I should add that a number of type 1 cards that weren't allowed when I played this deck could make it even tougher...Mind Twist (BX players discards X cards), demonic tutor (B1 search your deck for a card of your choice) and probably others (maybe an Hypnotic Spectre)

      I think I typoed on 'Cursed Rack' it may have just been 'The Rack'. It was an artifact that did a point to your opponent on each of his upkeeps for every card he had below three in his hand.
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        Re: typo correction

        Mon, March 22, 2004 - 2:28 PM
        The idea of getting opponents to discard their combos and enchantments is a good angle that for some reason I completely overlooked. Thanks for the tip.

        I did manage to beat the combo player last Friday at his own game. My black deck beat his combo deck using the combo of the card Phage plus that equipment artifact that makes a creature unblockable and unable to be the target of spells or abilities.

        Talk about sweet justice. :-)
        • Re: typo correction

          Wed, May 19, 2004 - 10:49 PM
          If you guys use anything at all, then Nev. Disk is the best option. If the deck is highly mana dependent, then try Winter orb, to lock down their mana sources.
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            Re: typo correction

            Thu, May 20, 2004 - 10:17 AM
            I do use "The Disk" in that deck, but more times than not I have to "Tutor" to get it because I only have one of 'em. (Curse my limited budget!) It works great - once. There is one other artifact I have (the name escapes me) but it allows to to sacrifice it to remove any one permanent from the game. So I use that and the Disk right now.

            At least with Red, if someone brings out a Circle of Protection Red you have instants with flashback that say "Damage cannot be prevented this turn" whereas Black is hooped without artifact help.
            • Re: typo correction

              Thu, May 20, 2004 - 2:32 PM
              Hull Breach and Pernicious Deed are good answers andd only require you to splash a small amount of that second mana color. Gate To Phyrexia is also an answer that black has for artifacts. Xenic Poltergeist turns artifacts into creatures and black has many ways to deal with them. Red has a few ways to deal with enchantments, but they're expensive and result in all players losing everything. Things lile Apocalypse and such. Anywho, I hope I helped some.
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                Re: typo correction

                Thu, May 20, 2004 - 4:24 PM
                Yes, those are some new angles to consider. Thanks.
                • Re: typo correction

                  Fri, June 11, 2004 - 8:51 PM
                  Sorry to take so long to respond (newbie here) but have you considered adding Howling Mines, Black Vices, and Underworld Dreams for the black deck? The Mine forces the opponent to draw, and the Vice and Underworld Dreams force the damage (the Vice on the upkeep, Underworld Dreams durring the draw).
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
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                    Re: typo correction

                    Sat, June 12, 2004 - 9:40 PM
                    Thanks for your input - and welcome!

                    Yeah, I have been experimenting with various artifacts in that deck. I considered a "Disk" pairing with "Darksteel Forge" so that I could use the disk at will without ever losing it. The problem is that I end up with too many contingency cards in the deck and the deck's theme gets watered down.

                    I've got my Vises in my Blue deck because Blue is really hurting these days. My Blue deck used to kick butt before this block now it's the joke deck of our tournaments. It's everyone's fave punching bag. But that's for another thread.
                    • Re: typo correction

                      Sun, June 13, 2004 - 11:05 AM
                      Indestructible does not prevent sacrificed artifacts from going to the graveyard. Sacrifieced is different from destroyed, more absolute in the games rule structure. A sacrifice, esp where it si part of a cost can never be gotten around. I bleive the disk requires that you sacrifice it. It may not say so on whatever edition you have, but you will have to check the errata.
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                        Re: typo correction

                        Tue, June 15, 2004 - 12:46 PM
                        Bugger. You're right re: errata. Another idea down the tubes. Same with "Rocket Launcher". *sigh* :-)
                        • Re: typo correction

                          Thu, June 24, 2004 - 11:57 PM
                          Nev's disk doesn't sac anything. It combo's perfectly well with Indestructable.

                          Black doesn't really have any way of dealing with an enchantment lockdown...but you could slide in white for Disenchant or Green for Naturalize. Oblivion Stone works, but it is slower (and much more expensive) than is the Disk, so I would say invest in more discs or branch out. Another option is to write off the game with your black deck and bash the hell out of the enchantment player with your tranquilizes. If you play a fast green deck all night that has some beat down and a lot of enchantment hate, your friend will probably either stop playing the enchantment deck, though he may not destroy it.

                          Good luck :-)
                          • This post was deleted by Tribe.net Help
                            • Unsu...
                               

                              Re: typo correction

                              Tue, June 29, 2004 - 11:46 AM
                              You've made my day - thanks for the post. I'll be sure to pass this along to my play group.
                              • Re: typo correction

                                Tue, June 29, 2004 - 11:50 AM
                                You are welcome. Rune Horvik of the Saturday School is a level 4 judge, thats about as authoritative as it gets.

                                Thanks are really due to Josh for correcting me.

                                Later guys!
                                • Re: typo correction

                                  Tue, June 29, 2004 - 2:02 PM
                                  Glad I could help! Disks are awesome pieces of (cardboard) sweetness.

                                  Let us know if you manage to take care of the pesky enchantments your friends play.

                                  J
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                                    Re: typo correction

                                    Fri, July 9, 2004 - 12:29 PM
                                    I'll let you know in a little over a week - that's our next tournament.

                                    I have actually reworked my black deck - I've added some equipment (Lightning Greaves) to the deck so that the creatures can attack as soon as they come out. This should give it some extra speed. All going well, I won't need to use the Disk - they'll hopefully be dead before they can get their combos working. [insert evil laugh here]
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                                      Re: typo correction

                                      Tue, August 24, 2004 - 7:31 PM
                                      Well, that wretched fellow with the enchantment deck is avoiding playing me with that deck of his these days. But my black deck is doing a number on his other decks so it's just a matter of time before he brings it out to stop the bloodletting. :-)

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